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Launch HN: Quell (YC S20) – Immersive gaming and combat workout
170 points by douglaspaul on Aug 19, 2020 | hide | past | favorite | 134 comments
Hey HN,

We're Cam, Doug, Lorenzo and Martin, co-founders of Quell (https://quell.tech).

Quell is an immersive fitness game which guides players through an exciting, effective combat workout at home. Players fight enemies with a low-cost wearable which uses smart resistance bands to simulate real combat training. Our aim is to be Peloton meets gaming meets boxing, at 1/10th of the price. We launched on Kickstarter yesterday, and would love it if you checked us out! Here’s the link: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/quelltech/quell-real-ga...

We started building Quell because for us, exercise wasn’t fun; it was work. We’d tried all the stats tracking apps and the cycling simulators, but they weren’t treating that root problem. Over time, as the novelty wore off, we were left with the feeling that working out was still boring and uncomfortable.

As big gamers, gamification seemed like an obvious solution. We looked at what was happening in this space and felt that exercise games tended to compromise on the exercise or the game. We believed that, if we could get both right, we could make something we’d want to play. Everything in the market was focussed on running, cycling or yoga/pilates, so we went with boxing as a more intense and cathartic alternative.

We realised that Quell could be a real business when we started talking to people about exercise. Everyone was facing the same two problems: obstacles, and a lack of reward. The absence of immediate rewards when you exercise means that you have to propel yourself using long-term benefits, and most of us are bad at this. On top of that, seemingly small barriers like weather, travel, set-up, knowledge and equipment sharing have a massive impact on people's ability to commit.

The team started working together in February, but we all had other things going on. Cam had just left his career in management consulting to do a design master’s. Martin was wrapping up his PhD in sensor tech at Oxford. Doug was building a business providing remote working and development retreats. Lorenzo was doing a design master’s to pursue a career in prosthetic design. None of us had the financial stability to make this our full-time job, so we decided to develop the product over a year or two in our spare time. After a month, we applied to YC with zero expectation of being accepted. Our idea was basically a punching bag with a screen, and we knew it wasn’t where we wanted it to be. We saw the YC application as a forcing mechanism to put some rigour behind the business, and an exciting experience to go through.

Then Covid hit, and the target market went from ‘people who don’t like exercise’ to ‘people who don’t like home exercise or running around the same park every day’. We went into overdrive, using all of our days off and lunch breaks to develop the product. Despite all this effort, the pace was glacial. All the workshops closed during lockdown, so we had no tools. We were separated in different parts of the UK, trying to build hardware via Zoom. Then YC accepted us, and we could finally focus! We left our jobs and degrees. Everyone moved into Cam's apartment. We bought a 3D printer, a sewing machine and a bunch of electronics and textiles. We spent all day every day looping through talking to users, collating insights, designing and prototyping.

We learned that no one wanted the hassle of a punchbag, but everyone loved the idea of feeling the satisfying physical resistance of punching something at home. We built a wearable which applied customisable resistance to punches through swappable elastic bands, and it landed well. We started looking at computer vision to translate player punches into the game, but our potential users hated the idea of setting up a camera. After hundreds of hours spent punching the air in our living room, we found that we could get high-accuracy, low-latency gesture recognition through a neural net applied to inertial measurement units in the gloves.

We made a quick video and website with our first prototype (link here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hrIegPSxko2JPzsztm_1UmV4iRO...), then started advertising on Facebook and Instagram to see how it landed. The response was incredible, with CPA coming in 75% lower than our benchmarks. We opened pre-orders to test whether these people would convert and got fifty orders in the first month. After drafting our bill of materials, we settled on a price of $200 for the wearable and $10/mo in subscription fees, which works out at less than half the average gym membership. With 55m active gamers paying for a gym membership pre-covid, we estimate a market size of $18bn.

With the financials sorted and the early market validation complete, we felt confident in building towards a Kickstarter. For the last month, we’ve been working hard on turning ideas into concept art into game content, making the product look and feel good, shooting the video, writing the copy, pricing, costing, and growing our sign-up list. We launched our Kickstarter yesterday, and have recieved over $60k in pledges in our first 24 hours. You can check out the full video of our new prototype at https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/quelltech/quell-real-ga....

We’re continuing to develop the hardware and the game in parallel, and would love to hear what HN loves and hates, as well as any questions you might have. We’ll be on here every waking hour (UK time) to respond as soon as humanly possible. Thank you!



Love the idea, and I'd be very much interested in trying this out.

Having done a little bit of boxing, it's a pretty good full body workout. It's hard to say how the resistance bands would feel compared to a punching bag though. Also: how do they work for different punches like uppercuts?

How would you track blocking? How accurate is the position tracking? The tracking animation notably only measures one dimension (extension), not the direction in 3D. That seems quite hard just with the bands.

Another concern: I feel like for many users the punching motions would get boring really quickly.

Engaging game(s) would be key. Since it's all you do, the punching must be satisfying. Including making me "feel" the impact. That means: smooth animations with accurate position tracking, quality audio, ....

What I see in the video does not work so well for me. Having some variety would also be key. Eg have a basic boxing ring available for mindless punching, but also a more engaging RPG style game where you don't punch all the time - for longer sessions.

Building full-fledged quality games in addition to the hardware seems like a very big task.

Have you thought about searching for interesting indie games (including the various VR boxing variations) and looking for partnerships?


I also love this idea, and the body harness looks like a very innovative approach.

I agree with many of the concerns OP mentions, especially the need for a variety of engaging games. The demo game feels a little too cartoony for my taste, would love to see more titles in different styles.

Another concern I have is how can it help reinforce proper posture, body positioning, and footwork? I realize this is very difficult to address, but those fundamentals are extremely important and seem to me to be areas where many beginners could develop bad habits if not corrected somehow.


Thanks for the feedback, and you've raised some great points.

We're absolutely on-board with the idea of multiple games - we have the launch title being developed (that you've seen in our current artwork), and others in mind. Out of interest, what would be your preferred style of game for combat fitness? We've had some good discussions around this in our Discord server.

To your concerns re: body posture and movement; you couldn't be more right about the importance of getting these aspects right. We have experience both within our team and our advisers covering everything from international boxing to prosthetic design - we are taking the ergonomics and science very seriously for this exactly reason.


For me personally, I would prefer a more realistic style fighting game for combat fitness where my opponent looks and moves like a real person. Or even something along the lines of the classic arcade fighting games like Mortal Kombat where the violence gets a little more graphic. Basically games that feel like they are targeted at adults instead of all ages family friendly. But I understand the need for variety, and applaud the progress made so far on this project.


I can tell you we share that view - we're looking forward to growing out more games in the future, however we aim to make the launch time compelling to users of all ages, and that means getting the story absolutely right. There were definitely jokes in the team early on about licensing Mortal Kombat to up the ante of the fights!


After thinking about it for a day or so, I think what the Quell demo is missing for me is simplicity. Boxing is pretty fun by itself and there’s a lot of potential depth in building up different combinations of punches and the rhythmic nature of the exercises. So a simple Wii Sports or even Dance Dance Revolution style trainer would appeal more to me than a cartoon style game. If I were eight years old, it would be absolutely the reverse, but what I want as an adult is just the boxing.


I'd love to see your interpretation of rails shooter like "The House of the Dead."

I'm imagining a branching "storyline"/exercise routine. One path might have many very weak enemies that take somewhat precise combos where another might have stronger minibosses where its a slugfest.


Hi there, Martin from Quell here. Thanks for sharing these insights.

We love boxing for its exercise impact—until you try it, you have now idea how quickly punching can get you out of breath! The main resistance is indeed to straight shots, but as we add new movements and improve our game and motion tracking, it is feeling more and more satisfying.

Blocking is quite natural—when your arms are blocking your face in real life, so too are your character's! Totally agree that variety is needed to keep people engaged, which is why we're developing a range of motions beyond traditional boxing strikes that players must perform during a session. We'll also be including a selection of modes, including a training mode which lets players jump straight into a fight when they don't feel like playing the main story. And yes, beyond our initial release and our ongoing support for it, we plan to open up the Quell system to other developers, via partnerships or otherwise, and grow into an ecosystem of immersive games aimed at our core desire to make working out fun, efficient and accessible.


Wouldn't AR with an actual punching bag be the better approach? I mean, the proper AR hardware is lacking anyways at the moment, so your approach makes a lot of sense. But in the end nothing can replace the feeling of your fist hitting a real punching bag when it comes to boxing.


> Including making me "feel" the impact. That means: smooth animations with accurate position tracking, quality audio, ....

Since it's all you do, the punching must be satisfying. In addition to the resistance of the bands, I wonder if there is any sort of haptic feedback on contact? That seems like it could be very satisfying to me.


Great feedback, thanks for sharing!

As for the haptics, check our stretch goals on Kickstarter! It's something we're very interested in...


Here's old grouchy me talking:

I don't like subscription games, particularly games like this that don't seem to need any network connection at all to function.

I still play games that I bought over 30 years ago. Quell probably won't be still running their servers for the original game in 30 years, and if they are I'll have paid $4k for the privilege of renting this game indefinitely.

I get that I'm not the target audience, and for many people $5-10 per month feels like a better deal than $70 upfront for a AAA game, but I personally won't back something that is useless without a subscription fee.

If for for $X I could get the game, Y months of whatever the subscription provides (Events, whatever) and the guarantee that the game will still work when the servers shutdown or my subscription expires, that would totally interest me.


It looks like you get Quell single player free for life and the subscription is Quell +, I may have missed something where it mentions you need a constant internet connection though. Quote from the kickstarter: "Everyone who buys Quell gets the base game, for free, for life."


Part of the point seemed to be that

> free for life

tends to be for the life of the service (so typically 1-5 years), not for the life of the buyer.


Oh, I'm suddenly interested again; thanks for pointing that out!


Happy to hear it! And to confirm, messiahtyler is correct—Quell+ provides additional content on top of the base Quell experience, enabling us to keep developing fresh experiences within the game.


I'm totally cool paying extra for premium content, I just don't want to be renting my video games :)


Hear, hear!


> High Impact Exercise

I think you're using the wrong words there. "High Impact" workouts in the fitness world mean they are harder on your joints and tendons (think crossfit/hiit vs low impact like spin cycles).

Since you aren't punching anything and you're not jerking your body around, I'd imagine this is more mid-impact?

https://www.humana.com/prevention-and-care/healthy-living-an...


They're looking for "High Intensity" (the HI in HIIT)


That's true, thanks for the input! :)


Hi, Martin from Quell here. Thanks for the insight! In truth we hadn't considered the full connotations of "High Impact" so will adjust the positioning accordingly. Would definitely be a shame to put off people for this reason. One of the benefits of our wearable is that it acts to prevent the hyper-extension of the arms that can cause injury or soreness when throwing straight shots while shadow boxing, so definitely keen to make sure we explain this properly!


I know this currently isn't your focus, but please consider adding the option to just purchase the resistance strap setup. There are a lot of VR Fitness boxing games where people are trying to add more resistance to their VR Boxing workouts in order to get a better workout. They are buying weighted vests, but this would be a great thing to make the existing workout experience in VR even better.


Hey! :) Love this idea, and we will definitely consider it. Thank you for your input!


Exactly this ,please. I need something like this ASAP. And I would have bought Quell, but I am afraid shipping to my country would be expensive and problematic.


We're coming as fast as we can! If you're unsure about shipping for now, you're very welcome to join our Discord server, where our community are chatting about all things gaming and fitness.


Looks fun, I have a Vive VR and enjoy workouts on it. Few questions:

I know next to nothing about being fit and working out, but would this workout target pretty much a single muscle group with resistance?

If it's all running on the phone, hows battery life? Between running the game and processing motion data what's the specs required?

I'm guessing a motion tracker in both hands and in the body to detect motion, but that'd drift if you allow movement. Are you planning on using any body-tracking ML with the phone's camera? Otherwise it sounds like the game will be a linear rail-road.

Finally, given it's elastic, how easy is it to hit yourself in the face if your arm gives out at full stretch?


Hey! Lorenzo from Quell here :) We're working super hard to make sure that Quell trains effectively different muscles group. We've been talking to professional athletes to find creative ways to do so, and are developing hardware and software features to make sure that Quell supports a varied workout that trains both upper and lower body. We don't know specific device specs yet, but we're really focussed on keeping the game light, so that users can run it on their mobile phones with no issue - this will also reduce the impact on battery life! :) Regarding the camera, it's something that we're considering for the future, but we're super proud to say that our accuracy is already particularly good, and not having to set up a camera is one less hassle for user experience! There's very little chance of you hitting yourself in the face: the elastic mechanism is made in such way that the resistance only kicks in midway through the punch! This increases safety and improves how satisfying the punches are, as many of our users told us!

Hope that answers your questions :)


This looks cool - but it would be 100% cooler if it was just a wearable, that I could customize to use with other games - for instance, World of Warcraft, punching to initiate an attack, and different motions to use items, 'click', etc.

I can't imagine using the wearable very much if the game itself isn't compelling - which, from the movie, looks a little wack


I agree, it would be awesome. Thinks like virzoom bike controller are pretty fun and unlock unexpected use cases (see https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/5y15vx/elit... for a fun take on that)


Hi there! The footage in the KS video is just beginning of the kind of experience we're building with out game. Beyond that, we're definitely open to opening up our hardware to 3rd party applications and developers to enable a broader set of experiences with added resistance and exercise impact :D


I just hope the variety of movements goes beyond those seen in the video. So far it really looks like a boxing simulator and the repetitiveness of the Kickstarter video doesn't give the impression of an exciting game (you might consider cutting it to half the duration).

Don't get me wrong, I think it is a great idea. I just wonder how much better it will be than Wii Sports and if you will even achieve those levels. For that to happen, your game must be addictive. In my experience, that works best if the player can build things within the game (think Stardew Valley/Minecraft, not character cosmetics).


Hey! Lorenzo from Quell here. Thank you, really appreciate the feedback. We're working really hard to add movements to the game - for us, it is absolutely key that it doesn't feel like a boxing simulator. We're also working on many other aspects to make the game fun and enjoyable long-term: we're building a fully fledged story, a super wide variety of enemies, main characters, environments, movements and spells, and one of our stretch goals is to develop a roguelike mode, which would really push our users to their limit!

If you have more feedback / input, please do let us know! Thank you!


Congrats on raising a bunch of money!

To me, this looks very comparable to Fitness Boxing for the Nintendo Switch. I tried the demo of that intending to purchase, but then dropped out.

Regarding Fitness Boxing: - I didn't feel comfortable with the workout: since I have never boxed before, I was confident that my form was bad and had too few pointers to feel good about it.

- I ideally wanted a whole body workout, and there was no focus on the lower body at all.

- It felt tough already without resistance bands, so I wouldn't be confident about whether those were bringing a useful benefit for me.


Thanks! We are very conscious of the fact that most of our users won't have experience with boxing, and plan to go to significantly greater lengths than games like Fitness Boxing to ensure that the player's technique is solid. Quell analyses your movements and tells you in clear terms how to improve. We'll also be including full-body movements like ducks and dodges to make it a more complete workout experience. To your last point—the resistance is adjustable, meaning you can dial it back to a point that you feel comfortable. Furthermore, adding resistance can actually help to make the experience feel more comfortable as it prevents the hard hyper-extension that can happen with straight shots when shadowboxing.


Thanks!


I absolutely LOVE this. Really considering backing the kickstarter.

Some thoughts I had off the top of my head:

- This seems feels like a good use case for VR to have something totally immersive. Not sure how steady VR headsets are these days though...

- Are there mechanics to "level up", like an RPG? I think that type of structure motivates a lot of people to keep playing and "grinding"

- What about P2P? It seems hard to pull-off, but could be really cool & entertaining on twitch!

Excited to see where you all go!


> Not sure how steady VR headsets are these days though...

VR headsets are pretty secure in general. The problem is comfort and the other is sweat. Comfort will vary headset to headset but there are lots of accessories and mods to deal with both issues.

The best thing about VR is immersion. There are also several really good boxing/fighting games out now. One of them is good enough where a pro-boxer uses it for training much like some pro drivers use driving sims to practice. The only things missing are resistance and feedback. I can see Quell's straps being used in VR. The best I've seen for feedback is wear a suit or vest of bunch of small speakers. It's not ideal, but it's better than nothing.


Hey! :)

Thank you so much! Lovely to hear that you're interested in backing us!

To answer your questions: - We're definitely interested in porting Quell to VR later down the line. However, we chose not to for now, because our users just don't like exercising with it. They say it's cumbersome, heavy, sweaty and unsteady.

- The game is a fully-fledged story-based game with RPG elements. We totally agree that it's absolutely key to have this, to make sure our users love exercising with Quell, and don't get bored of it!

- P2P is also in our plans! It's not going to be one of our first features, but we're working to make it happen later down the line - it would be super exciting.

Let me know if you have further questions, super happy to reply :)


Yes yes yes! Super excited for this, but... Make sure you get the balance between game and fitness program right. I tried the zombie run audio program a few years ago and didn't like it, it was just a regular fitness class but they would make zombie noises and yell at you to run harder bEcAuSe ThE zOmBiEs ArE cOmInG.

I want to play a game that has a side-effect of a fitness program. I'm not looking for a cut beach bod, I'm just looking to get mobile and get my heart rate up; I want a slightly more involved Wii Sports.

If it gets too fitness-y, I'm just going to pursue a proper fitness program and not waste my time with kitschy and campy video game facades.


I use Beat Saber and Pistol Whip on the Quest as my go-to lockdown workout. I break a sweat within 5 minutes most days, and before I know it it's been a 30 minute session. I'm not sure any fitness trainer would approve, but it gives me an excuse to get my arms and legs moving and get my heart rate up without me ever dreading the morning workout.


Beat Saber is amazing, I can't wait to try the new Linkin Park tracklist! We've actually had some fun playing it with wristweights (and even the Gauntlet prototypes) to see how much more of a workout we can make it. First time you add wrist weights is a weird sensation - you go to move your hand in the game, and it's just so much slower!


Funny you mention Zombies Run. I felt exactly the same when we all tried out their app earlier in the year. Used it for one training run and in reality the story and zombie noises interrupted my playlist, and didn't help me (although admittedly the HIIT element did make me sprint where I would normally jog).

We all agreed there was a lot we could learn from it though - after all they've had 5 million downloads, so it's working for some people!

If you'd be interested to provide some thoughts on the direction we take with the game, we'd love to have you join the conversation in the Quell Discord channel.


I am a couch potato who is eating and lazing myself towards an early death... but I've played VR games and found myself only noticing how exhausted I was when the game ended, as opposed to exercise, where I hate what I'm doing when I start and it only gets worse from there.

VR might be the mindhack that dramatically improves public health.


Yes! Great to hear you've found something that effectively distracts you from getting fit! For me it has always been adventure sport - I grew up having to distract myself with skateboards, climbing, mountain bikes, surfing, etc to keep myself healthy, because just running for the sake of it was awful!

Our take on this is that - like your experience with VR - there is a way to make exercise fun, and therefore distract you from the work you're having to do during it.

Out of interest do you own a VR headset currently?


I don't own one right now. Thinking about an Oculus Quest for Beat Saber or the HP Reverb G2 for Flight Simulator. Obviously the first is better for exercise.


I guess this might be an effective way to get someone into working out, but ultimately it's just a gimmick similar to those late-night products that generally don't do much.

I'm a bit of a fitness buff, I've been working out pretty my whole life. I guess the things that jump out at me that are off:

1. I wouldn't personally say 'we hate working out'. That to me is the wrong message. Working out is rewarding and worthwhile, for me it's something I look forward to every day. If you want to aim your messaging at people that feel that way, then say it that way - 'If you hate working out, this is for you!'. I'm not wild about that messaging either but at least it's not coming from the founders which to me is a big turnoff.

2. This is not a full body workout. There appears to be no leg resistance and/or emphasis on leg training. I would be careful in how you present this in your messaging.

3. I would position this as an intro to working out and partner with someone (if you can) like AthleanX.com which is are science based / physical trainer designed full body workouts. The reason I would try that is because you will likely have 2 outcomes of your users. Outcome 1 - they'll play it for a while, feel good about themselves and stop, or they'll maybe finish the full game experience, and stop. Outcome 2 is someone that really gets into this, sees some transformation of their upper body and wants to move on to a 'real full body workout' (which sorry this is not). That kind of partnership would be a win-win for both parties because it's a bit tough to jump right into a typical full body workout (esp. the AltheanX stuff which is really aimed at elite athletes), and having something like this as any easy onboarding process could be pretty cool. It would also be beneficial to have the expertise of a high-end, well designed full body workout help guide future workouts for your product. Right now, it really doesn't look like the movements, or punching is all that varied.

4. I also have a VIVE/VR setup and like others, I use that as part of my workout; in my case it's more a post-workout workout. I don't expect it to really develop muscles, or improve my cardio all that much, but it's a nice way to burn some extra calories and get some cool hand-eye coordination / dex training into your workout that is otherwise hard to come by (Space Pirate Trainer, Pistol Whip, Beat Saber for example).

Either way good luck, I do think the future of fitness is in some form of VR, AR + interaction/gaming.


Hi there, Martin from Quell here. Thanks for sharing these insights!

To your first point, you're right—this is definitely not true for everyone. As a keen cyclist, I can say that getting out on my bike is definitely something I look forward to, too (less so now that London has returned to being one big puddle, but still)! We'll look into adjusting this to be more open-minded. You're also correct that, at present, it's not a full body workout. We're currently expanding the range of movements you can perform in the game to make it much more dynamic, including ducks and dodges, thereby providing a more complete experience here.

I love the idea of partnering up with a company like AltheanX. We're definitely keen to get people working out, and we know that our product can't be a replacement for a full gym, so partnerships seem like a brilliant way to provide a more complete workout.

Lastly, we too have enjoyed our experience with VR workouts. One of our early tests was to include wrist weights with games like Beat Saber, which makes it a much more challenging proposition. One problem that I'm sure you've encountered too, though, was that once the action got intense, we found the headset to be too sweaty and cumbersome for the experience to stay enjoyable for long. That's actually one of the big reasons why we started with a more traditional screen-based setup, but as VR lovers ourselves we're definitely keen to move into this space as people's adoption and comfort when using this amazing technology increases!


You're welcome Martin, happy to help out.

I'm curious if you have thought of having something like a burpee as one of a few different 'dodges' to move things toward a full body workout and activate the legs more?

I'll also second the idea of selling the harness separately. I think something like that + VR could be a big hit. I also wonder if you have considered creating a lower body harness to add resistance to the leg?

One thing I'll say that is appealing about your approach is that it's not VR. I find it somewhat unpractical to do a real workout in VR because current headsets are both bulky and very warm/hot to wear. The lens tend to fog up along with just sweating like mad, it's just not ideal. This is mostly a problem that'll solve itself as future HMD design presumably shrink and become less intrusive/bulky. Generally I think no headset like this is a big plus for you guys.


Absolutely! We're planning to implement movements like burpees to give users the possibility for High Intensity full body workouts! We've chosen not to do Vr based on user feedback: people seem to not like it. They find it cumbersome, heavy, sweaty and annoying, and we want to provide a seamless fitness gaming experience! We will still explore porting to VR in the future, of course! :)

Regarding lower body workouts, we'll start by adding sensors to the legs if we reach that specific stretch goal. We'd love to add resistance too, if it's feasible! :)

Thank you for your input!


I'm not a fitness buff because I hate working out. I'm not overweight (perhaps slightly underweight) and it's hard to convince myself on any given day to do a thing I hate doing because it can't feel like a "win" until 3 ~ 12 months from now.

I got excited about this concept reading OP's description, but the video makes it look like it's resistance band exercise for the arms, and nothing beyond that.

I guess my ideal version of this would involve full body weight exercise somehow or lifting heavy objects.

I'm not sure 20 ~ 60 minutes of extending arms with resistance bands is safe or effective. We didn't really evolve to work our muscles that way. Then again I guess we didn't evolve to cycle either.


Hey! We're absolutely looking to implement full body workouts. With our tracking sensors, we will add exciting game+fitness features such as having to squat, do burpees etc in order to avoid the enemies or perform certain in-game actions. This will provide for a much more exciting experience, with a full-body, effective workout!


If you are already including VR into your workout routine, have you considered using VRWorkout [1] (disclaimer: self-promotion). It's a free and open-source full-body workout in VR. Still a bit rough around the edges but _very_ intense workout.

[1] https://vrworkout.at


Looks good, good luck with it!

I know for me I'd get pretty bored with doing just one thing (here, boxing, Peloton bike riding, etc.), even if the online "experience" varies things.

Also, while it's good for burning calories, it's just hitting (har!) one set of muscles. I'm doing a broad range of exercises through a streaming video service, including various weights/resistance training, and a yoga/tai-chi/pilates class that's really improved my balance.

So, for me, variety is something to shoot for.

Congratulations on the successful kickstarter!


Thanks! After the past few months with our heads down it's been so great to share what we've been doing with the world!

Variety is absolutely something to shoot for. Personally I've always been big on 'adventure' sports - I find that the distraction from the fact I'm working out allows me to have fun, and still stay (reasonably) fit! Not so easy to do when I'm back around home though - all these activities require time away...so building Quell allows for a more exciting workout whilst staying indoors (something that became a lot more relevant this year!)

One thing to note is that whilst the Gauntlet delivers resistance to upper-body motions, boxing is very much a full body workout. We're exploring a few different ways to maximise the core and lower-body elements of this within the game, but this is no case of skipping leg day!

Which streaming video service are you using? Any key parts of it that you think make it stand out against everything else you've tried?


Les Mills on Demand. I did the Les Mills classes at the gym I was a member of, before the plague hit, and liked the fact that they change up the workout and music every couple of months. The instructors at the gym unofficially redid the workouts, using old individual tracks/workout-sets so I never got bored.

With streaming, they have (literally) dozens of workout routines, at various time lengths, in eight or ten categories of work out types (straight weights, cross-training, a few kinds of aerobics, yoga fusion, barre, dance, more I can't remember :-). So when I get bored with a particular routine, I can easily switch to another.

On the iPad, you can download the routine so you don't need to worry about stream buffering (which has never been an issue on other devices, but I have fairly fast internet service).

It's ~$11/month (buying three months at a time) subscription, and I spent about $180 or so in equipment, so it's similar to the outlay for your service.

Again, congratulations on the launch, quite interested to see what you do in the future!


If you're still reading comments :-) I remembered a few other things Les Mills does that are great.

They have a lot of training videos, several for each class of exercise they do. They're in-depth, and really show you the form.

They add tips to the actual work-outs, so you're constantly reminded of good form.

They have alternatives to most of the exercises, so you can modify them if you have (e.g.) knee problems, or aren't up to full push-ups, etc.

They do good cool-down routines at the end of most videos, and have a number of cool-down-only videos you can watch for the others. Not everyone thinks highly of post work-out cool-down/stretching, but a lot of the people who seriously study exercise recommend it.


Ah a Les Mills fan! I have several friends who love the training too, although I haven't heard much about the on-demand stuff until now. Thanks for sharing it!

How has the community element of LM translated to their app? Do you still have ways of engaging or competing?


As far as I know, there's no competing in the app; can't say I've explored every crevice but I haven't seen it.

There is a Facebook group (which I haven't joined) which is, I gather, more supportive than competitive. They do videos every once in a while where they get their trainers/directors to either discuss techniques or answer Q&A. It's support-oriented.


hi! I'm an amateur martial artist and this looks cool! a lot of the training we do is for instance a single kick 100 times and getting the form right. it'd be a shame if a total beginner put on the wearable and punched with awful form. maybe you can make correct punches cause more damage(like a crit) so that players can get instant feedback of their form. Mike Tyson for example should be able to knock out a baddie in half as many hits as me. Imho it's counterproductive to learn the wrong way and it's really really hard to unlearn.

another option is skills drilling like minigames for players who want to level up without necessarily advancing in the game.

During covid quarantine I haven't been able to train with my teacher and I really miss it.


Hi, Martin from Quell here. Glad you like the sound of Quell, and totally agree that coaching on proper form is going to be key. We absolutely plan to make it so that, to succeed in the game, you need to be hitting hard, fast—and with good technique. We'll be coaching our players by analysing their form and giving them clear guidance on how to improve, as well as providing training throughout to make sure that they stay on point. Love the idea of using minigames to keep reinforcing this!


Backed it, since it looks pretty fun.

Out of curiosity, are there plans to have it track body motion (eg. via IMUs in the chest strap part)? One of the most enjoyable arcade light gun experiences is "Police 911 2", which is a light gun game that tracks the users' body so that they can take cover. I'd guess it would be fun if one can dodge attacks by ducking/leaning.


Thank you so much! As we continue to expand the move set we are absolutely working on full body movement, including ducks and dodges. We want to keep our players moving!


Saw a similar Product, but with direct impact training. A partnership with https://joinfightcamp.com/ might be a great thing, especially, if you added sensor pads for the feet to record leg kicks.

With your product, I'm reminded of Wii Boxing.


Great comment, thanks for the suggestion. Fightcamp are actually another former YC company - they started as Hykso punch trackers before pivoting to Fightcamp more recently. They are approaching the more conventional fitness market - like Peloton but with boxing, and their prices and model reflect this.

With Quell we're more focused on the immersive gamification - using combat fitness alongside a compelling story to engage users who find existing fitness gamification falls short of what they need to motivate themselves.

We would love to add sensor pads for kicks - Check out our stretch goal for it on the Kickstarter page!


Nice work on the product and video. It looks fun and it was easy to see what you're trying to accomplish.

That being said, with a $200 price tag and $10/mo subscription, why would someone invest in this instead of VR? Comparatively, VR seems to have a lot more versatility with regards to tracking and the types of activities people can enjoy, one of which is fitness related games.

With Quell, a person is limited to a single game, with one type of motion. I can't help but think this feels similar to someone selling a standalone VR system that could only play Beat Saber, and that doesn't seem like a very good value proposition.


Thanks for the kind words about the product. Totally understand the reservations about the subscription service. The value add here is that by subscribing, you gain access to a steady stream of new areas, enemies and modes that will keep Quell exciting. The base game will still have a lot to keep coming back to, but the subscription will help us run the development of this new content so that the experience stays fresh. We'll also be opening up the hardware to other developers, including those in VR, since we know that broadening the ecosystem can only help ensure people have a reason to keep using Quell long-term.


So not the existing, moderately popular VR game called Quell?

https://store.steampowered.com/app/534230/Quell_4D/


Hi, this is Martin from Quell—looks like fun! We realised that Quell is not necessarily a unique name, but felt that it captured the spirit of what we were doing too well to pass up on. A little competition never hurt, right?


> A little competition never hurt, right?

Optimism is fine, but realistically, yes, competition over a name for another video game can definitely hurt you.


It's also slightly disrespectful to your peers.


How do you think this compares to Nintendo's Ring Fit Adventure?


We actually love Ring Fit! Have you tried it?

We managed to get one of the first copies available after it had sold out through the lockdown, and have put in a good few hours over our lunchbreaks to benchmark against it. In our opinion Nintendo has done a really good job, and we even managed to break a sweat playing it.

That said, Ring Fit Adventure is limited to Switch users, and the game itself was not compelling enough to build a real fitness routine around (if Peloton and Zwift are too far in one direction, then RFA is too far in the opposite). It's taught us a lot about how important certain aspects from the game design will be as we continue building the Quell game world though...and anything that is encouraging people to look after their health gets a big thumbs up from us.


I've enjoyed Ring Fit Adventure but it has some downsides I've noticed. Just so you have another fitness-game-user's perspective:

- Gamification does sometimes interfere with the workouts and/or workout enjoyability. The tasks that were gameplay-optimal were often either tediously easy or exhaustingly targeting the same muscles repeatedly.

- Not enough cardio opportunities in the game, IMO. You get interrupted from the jogging sections repeatedly. Only a couple of the skill moves targeted cardio at all really.

- Lots of downtime and fiddling with menus and only semi-skippable instructions/tutorial videos of things you've done before. Enemy animations even for non-actions. Squeezing one's smoothies while dorky music plays. A half-hour workout took more like 50 minutes.

- Difficulty of exercises not reflected in their impact. Partly due to the fact that each person finds different exercises difficult and the game had no way of accounting for that.

- Sweat! I sweat a lot during any workout and I felt gross wearing the leg-strap repeatedly and the non-washable ring grips. I can guarantee I'd make the Quell gear stink in a few months max and would need a cheap way to wash them and replace padding that wears out.

The rhythm game section they added in a more recent update is super fun, though. I wish it were incorporated into the main game. Overall, I like RFA and have benefited from adding it sporadically into my exercise routines. I could definitely be in the market for Quell.


This feedback is great, thank you so much for sharing!

I agree about the rhythm section and some of the menu downtime. As for the sweating, any game in the fitness space needs to recognise this! We're making sure the Gauntlet can be washed just like any fitness kit should be for this exact reason!


I like the idea, but the wearable doesn't appeal to me. You say it is like a game, but it really feels like this product is pushing serious fitness work. The problem with that is that people that are serious into fitness go to the gym. Is it even safe to wear those bands for the arms? I don't like the theme of the game too - seems disconnected from target userbase. I want to fight other players, not silly robots.


Thanks for the feedback, it's really helpful for us to hear you raise these points. The workouts are designed to meet your personal fitness level - the resistance bands can be swapped out easily, and different parts of the game focus on strength and cardio, meaning you can set the workouts to the goals you're chasing.

As for the story - you say you want to fight other players - what does that game look like to you? We're always interested in these ideas for future game titles we can bring into the platform. If you'd like to join our Discord channel I'd be happy to chat about this further in there.


If this was purely a game and not a fitness gadget I would be interested. I'd be really curious if it was a good boxing game + this stuff to recognize movement from your hand (not these bands though). Would be cheaper too. But anyhow punching big robots/creatures just seems wrong - they seem to be heavy and my hand would just hurt lol. Also, when you use the word gamification it makes it crystal clear your game design knowledge and intentions are very limited. Don't take me wrong, I'm just being plain honest. Games > fitness, and this would make an awesome game. Particularly if it was competitive multiplayer :D (boxing and coop also doesn't seem right to me)


As if we nerds didn't already have enough advantages over the general population. /jk

srsly this is a great idea and a great price point; I'd buy it


Thanks, great to hear you like it!


This is genius, congrats on launching!

In your position I would look to consider 2 things:

1) Add leg straps for kicks! That's a killer ab exercise and would work great with your concept. 2) Let other devs make use of the hardware asap! Your strenght is clearly in the hardware. There are tons of game developers who could create incredible games with this. How great would be UFC game with this?

Good luck!


Thanks for your reply! We are definitely exploring full-body exercises and totally agree that leg straps would make this even more effective. To your second point—we absolutely intend to open our hardware up to 3rd party applications/developers in the future, as we know that broadening the types of experience is key to longevity with a system like this


> 2) Let other devs make use of the hardware asap!

Can't sell that $10/month subscription then though


Do you have any plans to allow 3rd party development for the hardware? From my experience with VR, this looks like it could be really fun but get old quickly without some variety.

Also, how are you doing the tracking? I don't see any external sensors mentioned, is it just IMU based? Because anything less than perfect sub millimeter motion tracking has become unacceptable these days.


Hi, Martin from Quell here. We're definitely keen to open up the platform to 3rd-party developers, as well as continuing to develop the core game to keep the product engaging over time.

We are indeed using IMUs to track the player's movements, and agree that high-accuracy motion tracking is one of the keys to making the experience really compelling and immersive. It's been a blast so far to feel the experience improve with each iteration of the game and software!


No motion tracker for legs

cries in Muay Thai


Check out our stretch goals - if we can get past $2m by 27th September then kickboxing mode is coming for you ;)


Can you post a link to those? Maybe it's me, but I cant find them on the kickstarter page.


Hey! There's no way to share a direct link to a section of the KS page unfortunatey, but it's section 12, right after the "Reward tiers" :)


This is really great guys keep going ! It is amazing to see IDE fellows (I'm IDE alumni) working on something that can help many people during these lock-down times.

In terms of feedback for me it would be great to have group challenges or teams of people joining in for a workout.


This is really cool! And congratulations on hitting your Kickstarter goal! This reminds me a bit of Wii boxing game that I liked, I really like this product. Your product also might have a market in fitness classes (once those reopen in the future). Would it be possible in the future to virtually box another person adding pvp to the product?


Hi, Martin from Quell here. Thanks for the kind words! Our own experiences with Wii Boxing have definitely been a touchstone for us; although we're developing a game with a completely different setting and style, I can say that I personally really enjoyed Wii Boxing for how it let you just pick it up and fight with your friends. For this reason, we're definitely working on a PvP mode!

We'd also love to see this used in gyms and fitness classes, and have been gathering insights from local gyms around London on how best to do this. Despite dealing with their own difficulties as a result of Covid-19, they provided some great insights that helped us to shape the product into something that we feel is compelling and effective, even to committed fitness folk.


Why is a YC company, perhaps the kind of company with the most access to capital, on Kickstarter? I get that it's free capital but it's a terrible look. I will wait until you have something to ship, or if YC underwrites you and says that they will refund Kickstarters if you fail to deliver.


Kickstarter is not the same as venture capital (and is certainly not 'free capital'). It's validation that actual customers are interested in the product and want to buy/use it. There are certainly risks associated with backing a project as a customer, but presumably the folks backing this campaign feel like the benefit is worth the risk.


It absolutely is free capital, in the same way that a 0% interest bank loan would be free capital. You don't have to give any interest, any equity, or any collateral in case of failure. How much freer does capital get?


Reputation has a value, and companies/founders who fail to deliver on a crowdfunding campaign incur a huge reputational cost.

Investors are far more willing to support founders after an earlier failure than crowdfunding customers are after an unfulfilled campaign.


Hi there, thanks for your comment. Kickstarter is an extremely useful way to accelerate the development of Quell for a few key reasons. It lets us manufacture and ship at scale, guaranteeing our backers the lowest price possible. Kickstarter also enables us to move faster towards bigger stretch goals. We can use it to ensure that we are building something that people actually want, which gives them a voice in shaping the product and demonstrates to other sources of funding that there is real demand for it. Of course, it also comes with the responsibility to really deliver on our promises or make good with our backers, no ifs or buts, and we take this very seriously.


It's a cool idea but the combat looks very slow paced and boring from the kickstarter video.

If you have some games which require faster reactions and speed of punching then it could become more interesting.

Are you planning to allow modding of the games?

What about having bands in other positions to enable using the biceps and shoulders?


Hi Crucio! Lorenzo from Quell here.

We're improving the gameplay every day, and with Kickstarter funding we'll be able to really bring it to the next level. We absolutely think it's key to have fast reaction times :)

We're really interesting in opening the platform up to developers, including for modding!

Regarding the resistance bands: we've tried a wide range of different positions for the bands, and we're happy to say that the current design provides really effective muscle training. But I totally see your point, and we'll be constantly looking to improve our Gauntlet Wearable with even more resistance!

Thank you for your feedback :)


This looks like fun, backed it. There is a lot of difficult pieces that have to come together for this to work though, and it is not just the hardware, if the game itself isn't good enough then the whole thing falls apart. I really enjoyed playing Beatsabre on Oculus.


Hi! Thanks so much for the support. We love Beat Sabre as well—in fact, one of our early tests was to strap weights to our wrists and try to play the game with the added resistance. It was a fun experiment, and frankly pretty hard work!

Also agree that there's quite a few moving parts to this project. We're looking forward to sharing more details of how the game will provide an exciting and varied experience!


So....it's like an over priced version of the wii version Punchout with a built in heart monitor?

Why would i get this instead of just buying a used wii or a vr system?

No offense, i thought the Peloton was stupid too and their ads were horrible. I was so happy when i stopped getting ads for that thing.


I found Wii Sports gave me nasty RSI in a way I'd never experienced before if I tried to play it "seriously" for any length of time. All that vigorous motion but with no weight or resistance was really, really bad. It also allowed a much faster pace of action than the real sports it mimicked, which probably didn't help—no stopping to fetch the ball or wait for people to get into position in tennis or baseball, for instance.

Waggling the controller with one's wrist was more effective in game and didn't hurt after 15-20 minutes like playing "for real" did. It also wasn't really any more fun than playing with a normal controller—so, fun, but nothing special.

I'd expect to hurt myself trying to get a workout with something like this, based on that experience.


Hi, Martin from Quell here. As someone who shares this exact experience, it's something we have been thinking about from day one when building Quell. If we make something that causes injury or can easily be "tricked" into thinking that the player has done something they haven't, we have failed in our core goal of making a fun, accessible workout that can be enjoyed at all fitness levels.

We're working in consultation with boxers and boxing trainers to ensure that the game teaches users proper form. To break through your enemies defences and succeed in the game, you'll need to perform precise, accurate strikes with good technique. In addition, our wearable prevents you from hyper-extending when throwing straight shots, which can otherwise cause injury.


Hi there, Martin from Quell here. We feel we're different from existing options like the various games on the Wii or VR systems for two key reasons. The first is that we use resistance to boost the effectiveness of the workout and help prevent the joint injuries that can happen when shadowboxing. The second is that our game goes much deeper that existing offerings, with a fully fledged story set in an engaging fantasy world, providing a lot more variety in the types of gameplay we can offer than your typical boxing simulator.

PS as a keen cyclist I have to agree about Peloton. That's why we decided to make a game about punching monsters instead—much more fun!


This is amazing! Really excited to see where this goes, good luck :)


Thank you!


The "Gauntlet" looks like it would be too chafing. I don't want to work out only to have rashes and bruises in my armpits and wrists.


Hey! Lorenzo from Quell here. It's super important to us that that never happens. We've tested the Gauntlet with a lot of users, with different body types, and have never had any problems like chafing. We're keen on maintaing that through high quality design and materials.

Thank you for your input!


It turns me off that there is a subscription TBH when it doesn't really seem like a subscription worthy thing, especially at $10/month


Hi! Can understand the reservations about the subscription service. The base Quell game is free for life. Our subscription service provides access to a steady stream of new areas, enemies and modes that will keep Quell exciting. The base game will still have a lot to keep coming back to, but the subscription will help us run the development of this new content so that the experience stays fresh for longer. We'll also be opening up the hardware to other developers, including those in VR, since we know that broadening the ecosystem can only help ensure people have a reason to keep using Quell long-term.


Will Linux be supported on PC? This looks really interesting to me, as I am getting lazy without anyone to fight during the pandemic.


Why has no one just created a VR punching bag tracker that gets tracked in physical space, with trackable VR punching gloves?


Good question. From our research into this possible direction early in Quell's journey, we deduced the risk with existing VR tech was unappetising. If the game lags by a few hundreds of a second, you could punch when the bag is in a slightly different position to your VR perception of it...which could lead to broken bones, sprains and torn ligaments. It will absolutely happen when the tech catches up!


Any chance for releasing the straps on their own without the quell platform? I would be interested in using them with VR.


Hi there! Martin from Quell here. At this time, we don't currently have a separate release of the wearable planned. Though we're releasing it only as part of the full Quell system at the moment, we love VR and are keen to move into this space as well. Offering the harness as a standalone is definitely one option we've considered, so it's great to hear that people are interested in this! We're also exploring releasing a VR port of the game down the line.


This looks awesome. I hope you all succeed.


Martin from Quell here—thank you so much for the kind words!


No low line or roundhouse kicks?


Hi there! We'd love to include kicks as well, though we've had to put it as a stretch goal due to the additional complexity it presents for development at this stage. Expanding the range of movements is definitely in our roadmap either way :D


That's pretty dope! Any plans for adding VR at some point?


I assumed VR when I read "immersive". Is that just me?


I thought the same thing, and there's no way using a resistance band feels anything like an actual punch. It looks like what DDR is to dancing, which to be fair, is how I lost a good amount of weight in high school.


Can see where you're coming from - VR's key USP is often touted as'immersion'.

For us, it's about building something that is exciting enough to distract you from the workout you're doing - the gaming takes over from the awareness of your exercise in your mind. There are a number of ways to do this, some would include VR. For now we've opted against it as our users found VR fitness too sweaty and uncomfortable in its present form.

Where do you stand on VR? Do you have any of the headsets currently?


I'm a big fan of VR in general (but looking forward to improvements in comfort).

How sweaty you find it is surely a function of your local climate and availability of air-con. I wouldn't play Beat Saber in the summer without good air flow but then I'm in the UK where air-con is fairly rare in the home.

But I can happily play for 45-60 minutes when it's not super hot in the house.


VR can track punches pretty well already, including player head and hands position for dodging and movement. (If developers supported more trackers, then it could track feet too) The only things missing are resistance and feedback. Technically, you can probably just wear this quell system or something like it if you want resistance. Feedback is trickier. I’m more interested in using the quell straps in VR since there are already good VR fighting games.


Thanks! We decided against VR at launch because test users found VR fitness too sweaty and uncomfortable. However, we are working on building VR experiences for when the headsets get lighter and more breathable. There’s also no reason you can’t buy the system and wear the Gauntlet while playing VR today!


That makes sense! Thanks!


At some point absolutely! The technology isn't where we want it to be yet though, so we've moved towards the existing market.


Looks cool indeed. I guess I need it more in office hours, lol


Hey there, Martin from Quell here. Thanks for giving us a look. Glad you like the sound of Quell! And if I understand your last point correctly, I can say that as it continues to develop, it's becoming more and more of a cathartic way to let off some steam...


No resistance for the lower body?

Can’t skip leg day.


Never skip leg day!

We looked into leg resistance bands early on in the design stage, and user tests led us away from them. In reality, you can get plenty of resistance for the lower body from gravity and the right exercises - we're working on some different game dynamics to introduce things like squats and lunges.


I think this is a tough concept. It looks kind of fun, but I don't think I'd believe people will pay $200 up front and then $120/year to play this game. My big concern is that you're not clear on where this falls between an exercise service and a fun video game.

* Multiplayer boxing is fun, but it's not going to be that much different than wii boxing or whatever VR equivalents are out there now. It's definitely not a noteworthy exercise tool.

* peloton sells a lifestyle w/ live classes. You're selling a video game. I think it's misleading yourselves to think about this as a subscription product because I don't think you'll be able to do much in the way of interesting content over time. You're much closer to ring fit adventure. Your main competitors, if released right now would be Fitness Boxing on the Switch and BoxVR. I don't know these games, but they turned up on a quick google. Reading through some of the other comments of people who are optimistic about this concept, they don't seem to know about these titles either, which is probably cause for concern.

* Making it a fantasy story based game is fun... but now you're locking in your target market to people who like those kinds of things and decisively not doing an "exercise" or "hardcore" aesthetic. I'm concerned that's not a big overlap with people who want to pay for an exercise service. Ring Fit adventure is kind of close to this and it sold 4 million units, so its not a BAD decision, but its a stark contrast to all of the value props that something like peloton pushes

* you say gesture recognition. I think a lot of people are expecting hand tracking and will be disappointed. I'm concerned you added spells because there's just not enough variety on the punches.

* doesn't look like you have any people with game dev experience on the team.

* kickboxing is a fun stretch goal but realistically I see nothing but difficulty in implementing that.

* I think it will be difficult to make a boxing game that people want to play every day for a long time. You said hundreds of enemies in your video. I think that's highly unlikely to happen. That's a huge huge challenge for any game dev shop. Judging from the clips, I don't think you really know how the game works. That is, how the player chooses what actions to take, and what creates the difficulty. Off the top of my head, the ways you can make a boxing game are puzzles / patterns (punch out), rhythm, ring fit-just-do-reps-and-follow-prompts style, and then something dynamic like wii boxing. Which of those can you choose and make a game that is compelling enough to play every day? Wii boxing sounds enticing but its really quite difficult to make a substantial game out of this. BoxVR and Fitness Boxing are rhythm games from the look of it.




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